July 1, 2024

#73 Path to Jesus from Taoism to Christianity #dualfaith

Thanks for listening. I appreciate your support. Say hi and let me know you enjoyed the episode. Also, suggest topics for a future episode.

Join Lionel on the Words for Change podcast as he dives deep into the journey of reconnecting to faith and exploring the message of Jesus. In this episode, special guest Bob Martin, a former criminal trial attorney and mob lawyer, shares his transformative spiritual journey. Discover how Bob's experiences in community service and political involvement shaped his path from Taoism to Christianity. This thought-provoking conversation highlights the duality in beliefs and the harmony between Eastern and Christian wisdom. Tune in for an inspiring discussion on the practical application of faith in our lives.

Three Major Takeaways

Practical Faith Reconnection: The episode underscores the importance of reconnecting with the Christian faith and the teachings of Jesus, focusing on how these can be practically applied in everyday life for personal and communal growth.
Impact of Individual Actions: Bob Martin's narrative demonstrates how individual actions in community service, political involvement, and professional roles can significantly contribute to societal change and influence the lives of others.
Interfaith Understanding: The conversation encourages exploring and understanding the commonalities between different faith traditions, particularly the shared principles between Taoist and Christian teachings, promoting a message of interfaith harmony and spiritual transformation.

Email Lionel Directly: Lloyd@lloydtalksmedia.com

🌟 Join our Patreon Community:
(https://www.patreon.com/user?u=94218920)

📖 Deepen Your Understanding with Logos Bible Software:
(https://logos.refr.cc/lionelbailey)

Help us make more content: paypal.me/LloydTalksLLC

🎬 Enhance Your Streaming with Ecamm Live: [Get Ecamm Live Software](https://www.ecamm.com/mac/ecammlive/?fp_ref=lionel11) (Affiliate Link)

💍 Get your Christian Marriage Assessment (https://www.symbis.com/)

🎧 Subscribe On Apple Podcasts
(https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/words-for-change-podcast/id1594988934)

DISCLAIMER: This video and description contain affiliate links, which means that if you click on one of the product links, I’ll receive a small commission. This helps support the channel and allows us

Support the Show.

00:00 - Personal Transformation Through Faith and Service

10:42 - Navigating Faith Differences in Marriage

26:27 - Exploring Duality in Faith Perspectives

36:37 - Interfaith Dialogue and Spiritual Exploration

53:46 - Interfaith Wisdom and Spiritual Growth

WEBVTT

00:00:00.240 --> 00:00:03.471
Well, hey, welcome to the Words for Change podcast.

00:00:03.471 --> 00:00:28.060
I am excited because we have an opportunity to reconnect to our faith, and there's so many different ways we can do that, but our goal here is for those of you who are in search for your Christian faith to reconnect to the message of Jesus, to the words of Jesus, to the practicality of what Jesus brings to our lives.

00:00:28.060 --> 00:00:32.609
This episode is going to be good for you.

00:00:32.609 --> 00:00:34.173
It's going to be very helpful for you.

00:00:34.173 --> 00:00:40.000
My name is Lionel, I'm the host of this podcast and I have a special guest who is here with us today.

00:00:40.000 --> 00:00:43.968
Bob, how are you doing today, good sir, I'm doing great.

00:00:44.048 --> 00:00:45.030
Thank you for having me.

00:00:45.030 --> 00:00:46.853
It's a real pleasure to be here.

00:00:47.939 --> 00:00:49.783
Absolutely, we're happy to have you.

00:00:49.783 --> 00:00:57.670
And so, bob, why don't you tell people who you are and what blessings or goodness do you bring to the world?

00:01:00.960 --> 00:01:02.161
So it's been a long life.

00:01:02.161 --> 00:01:20.180
I'm 74 years old and I guess the best thing I can say and the best definition of who I am today is I'm a happy guy who has the blessings of the love of my second wife and both of our all of our children and grandchildren, and I have opportunities to serve the community and serve the Lord.

00:01:20.180 --> 00:01:23.504
Have opportunities to serve the community and serve the Lord.

00:01:24.665 --> 00:01:26.787
So, Bob, how do you serve the community?

00:01:26.787 --> 00:01:36.257
Communal change is a big part of what we aspire to do and be with our Words for Change community.

00:01:39.962 --> 00:01:41.582
So how do you serve the community?

00:01:41.582 --> 00:01:49.129
So I am a part of the community and I'm a part of the world, and everyone that I come into contact with is a part of the community and a part of the world.

00:01:49.129 --> 00:01:56.257
So, as Mother Teresa once said, you know, we can't change the whole world, but we can change our little corner of it.

00:01:56.257 --> 00:02:05.799
So every difference that I can make in a life is a way of changing and serving my community.

00:02:05.799 --> 00:02:20.883
Then there's, of course, also the institutional things, like serving my church and being a community advocate and getting into politics and freedoms and rights and stuff like that, but mostly it's all about that one-on-one relationship that you have with folks that make a difference in their lives.

00:02:21.623 --> 00:02:23.546
So what did you do in the political sphere?

00:02:23.546 --> 00:02:27.330
How did you, how were you involved in that, in that part of your life?

00:02:27.330 --> 00:02:33.463
I'll let you tell your story and then I'll tell my story.

00:02:34.264 --> 00:03:03.046
Well, you know, if we get into politics, we have to take a look at the fact that this is an inflection point that we're at, and I think that the choice is very dire and very important and very um very grave, uh, that we're coming up in the next election, and I think that understanding and not having a superficial knowledge of things so that you can make an informed decision, um is, uh, it's just real important these days.

00:03:03.046 --> 00:03:07.715
Um, so, uh, that's the the political end of it.

00:03:07.715 --> 00:03:11.466
Uh, but I spent 40 years as a?

00:03:11.466 --> 00:03:20.229
Uh criminal trial attorney, both as a prosecutor, um for Janet Reno, uh, back in the cocaine days.

00:03:20.229 --> 00:03:22.133
You know if you ever seen the movie Scarface?

00:03:22.640 --> 00:03:24.243
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:03:24.925 --> 00:03:35.633
Well, those are the days that I was in Miami doing that stuff and I prosecuted and I was also a mob lawyer for some years.

00:03:36.820 --> 00:03:39.307
Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa.

00:03:39.307 --> 00:03:41.032
You just can't go over that.

00:03:41.032 --> 00:03:43.264
You said you were a mob lawyer.

00:03:43.264 --> 00:03:46.292
Yeah, yeah yeah, I mean tell us about that.

00:03:48.382 --> 00:03:55.814
Well, when I was working in the DA's office, we were in the Economic Crimes and Consumer Frauds Division and we hit the mob up for a good size of money.

00:03:55.814 --> 00:04:02.092
Shortly thereafter I left the office and I'll call him Johnny, okay.

00:04:02.092 --> 00:04:09.122
And basically the conversation was you know, you gotta be pretty good to hit us up for that much money.

00:04:09.122 --> 00:04:11.485
We'd like to see some clients.

00:04:11.485 --> 00:04:22.346
So I got involved in all that and yeah, yeah, so.

00:04:22.526 --> 00:04:24.630
so how did you make the transition?

00:04:24.630 --> 00:04:26.394
How did you get out of that?

00:04:26.394 --> 00:04:28.023
That's the best.

00:04:28.103 --> 00:04:29.747
Yeah Well.

00:04:30.067 --> 00:04:31.492
I mean you can tell me.

00:04:32.120 --> 00:04:35.228
Yeah, no, no, it's it's, it's it's we.

00:04:35.228 --> 00:04:36.451
We parted on good terms.

00:04:36.451 --> 00:04:39.423
We had a very good relationship.

00:04:39.423 --> 00:04:59.593
You know, I find that folks that are in the business of crime are very good businessmen and we had a very good arrangement that I wouldn't do anything illegal and unethical, and they said that that was in their best interest, because they wanted a lawyer who was respected by the court and whose word was gold.

00:04:59.593 --> 00:05:05.533
And so we met on those values and we did.

00:05:05.533 --> 00:05:07.339
You know, we, we worked together.

00:05:07.339 --> 00:05:18.588
But then came a time when Johnny's son got arrested on a 15 year minimum mandatory cocaine trafficking charge, and then there was no saying no to him.

00:05:18.588 --> 00:05:21.889
He wanted me to do this and to do that, which I wasn't willing to do.

00:05:21.889 --> 00:05:25.829
So I thought that moving to North Carolina might be.

00:05:29.461 --> 00:05:30.846
Well, I'll tell you.

00:05:32.581 --> 00:05:40.329
I did and we shook hands and he said yeah, sometimes a man just has to move on and this way we can part friends and never heard from them again.

00:05:40.959 --> 00:05:47.805
Well, you know, bob, I was on the lower end of that, as a young kid, teenager, who grew up in a poverty stricken area.

00:05:47.805 --> 00:06:12.101
I was on the bottom of that, you know, involved with all kinds of illegal activity not all kinds, but primarily with drugs primarily and, man, you know, the only way I got out of it was because I had a death threat over my life and the word was out on the street that it had a hit on me and so I had to get out of town and my family did everything in their power to get me out of town.

00:06:12.101 --> 00:06:24.925
So you were sort of at a different angle with that and you know, still the same, right, still the same, and yeah, so I got away from that.

00:06:24.925 --> 00:06:49.204
So tell me, what are you, what was the most, you know, memorable story that you had during that time and what was the thing that it was sort of a life changing moment for you during that time, as you are seemingly going through a tremendous transition from.

00:06:49.223 --> 00:07:02.505
Well, you know, yeah, in those days, in those days in miami, you know, the italians were talking to the haitians, were talking to the colombians, were talking to the cubans, talking to the peruvians, and so my clientele were all of those folks.

00:07:02.505 --> 00:07:14.562
And I guess the most dramatic case I ever had was a death penalty case for a soldier from the Medellin cartel, and that's a long story, but it was all about life or death.

00:07:14.562 --> 00:07:27.442
And the fella, you know, was raised by the Colombian Medellin cartel, but only after he ran away at 12 from his mother, who was schizophrenic and had tried to kill him three times.

00:07:27.442 --> 00:07:35.264
The guy turned out, he was educated by the cartel and he was the most gentle soul.

00:07:35.264 --> 00:07:41.555
He had a swimmer's body, about six foot four, snow white skin, dark black eyes.

00:07:41.555 --> 00:07:50.812
You know, as handsome as you could possibly imagine and as polite as you can, little did you know that he was a monster and would do anything the cartel asked him to do.

00:07:50.812 --> 00:07:58.060
So he wound up killing this fellow by wrapping his head in duct tape and it was a death penalty case.

00:07:58.201 --> 00:08:01.690
And the case wasn't about guilt or innocence, it was about life or death.

00:08:01.690 --> 00:08:10.471
And I argued to the jury that, yes, he is a monster, no question, when it came to the death phase, but not a monster of his own making.

00:08:10.471 --> 00:08:19.985
And then I was able to bring in his early life and the three times that his mother tried to kill him, burn his head and tortured him and did other kinds of things.

00:08:19.985 --> 00:08:22.653
So the jury came back and they said life.

00:08:22.653 --> 00:08:28.821
And I still get letters from him every once in a while oh, wow, wow, that.

00:08:28.821 --> 00:08:34.774
That that's the most dramatic story, but that's not the story of how the transformation came about.

00:08:35.120 --> 00:08:36.224
Right, right, right.

00:08:36.224 --> 00:08:38.951
So so tell us about the transformation piece there.

00:08:49.581 --> 00:08:56.654
Well, so I was going out with these guys in Miami in those days, the days Miami Vice days, a lot of chrome and glass, disco nightclubs, and and I was hanging out with these guys and just I was doing some stuff, snorting some things.

00:08:56.654 --> 00:08:59.724
I shouldn't have been and my life was kind of heading south.

00:08:59.724 --> 00:09:06.394
And I think I need to say that the family I grew up in, my folks were Eastern European immigrants.

00:09:06.394 --> 00:09:18.010
My dad, both of all of their families, all of my ancestors were wiped out by one group or another, slaughtered Either the Bolsheviks or the Nazis.

00:09:18.010 --> 00:09:27.565
My mom was Roma, gypsy, my dad Hungarian, and so they were I'm not going to say they were atheists, but they were non-theists.

00:09:27.565 --> 00:09:31.043
It wasn't a conversation that we had in our house.

00:09:31.043 --> 00:09:37.110
They came to the conclusion there couldn't possibly be a God with allowing those things to happen.

00:09:37.110 --> 00:09:42.259
So I really didn't have any kind of spiritual background.

00:09:43.966 --> 00:09:49.341
And then I got involved with these guys and things started to go south.

00:09:49.341 --> 00:10:07.936
I was arrogant, I was full of myself I know of course the white powder didn't help my perspective on that and I was just barely maintaining my use in secret in the courthouse.

00:10:07.936 --> 00:10:16.890
But at home life was going south and I was seeing a therapist and I came to a real crossroads.

00:10:16.890 --> 00:10:20.447
By the time I was 32 years old.

00:10:20.447 --> 00:10:29.563
I had paid my house off and now things were going south and I might have to refinance it and I went to ask him about that.

00:10:29.563 --> 00:10:35.443
So, rather than sit there and do the typical therapy well, how do you feel about that, bob?

00:10:35.443 --> 00:10:38.029
He reached behind and he grabbed some coins.

00:10:38.029 --> 00:10:46.402
He started shaking and throwing the coins and counting them up and making calculations and drawing lines and doing all this really weird stuff.

00:10:46.402 --> 00:11:00.340
And finally he wrote a big number down and he opened a book up to that chapter number and he showed me the chapter and the title was retreat and I I was paying him 65 bucks an hour.

00:11:00.340 --> 00:11:01.802
I just cursed him out, you know.

00:11:03.465 --> 00:11:04.647
So what was that he?

00:11:04.647 --> 00:11:05.849
So what was he doing?

00:11:07.191 --> 00:11:08.172
Right, right, right.

00:11:08.172 --> 00:11:12.969
So the advice was right and I went to this business.

00:11:12.969 --> 00:11:23.202
I was trying to start up that was draining me dry and I closed it and I went back and I apologized to my wife and I just decided I was going to get out of that rabbit hole and clean my act up.

00:11:23.202 --> 00:11:28.071
And I went back and I saw him and I asked him what it was and he said that's the I Ching.

00:11:28.071 --> 00:11:30.114
What's the I Ching?

00:11:30.114 --> 00:11:31.962
He says it's a Taoist practice.

00:11:31.962 --> 00:11:33.264
I said what's Taoism?

00:11:33.264 --> 00:11:49.664
So it turns out that my therapist, george Robinson, was the primary disciple and the English language editor for the very prolific master Hua-Ching-Ni.

00:11:49.664 --> 00:11:57.351
Listen to this A 72nd generation Taoist monk from the Shaolin Temple.

00:11:57.351 --> 00:11:58.333
You know Kung Fu?

00:11:58.399 --> 00:12:00.628
You're talking about Hua-Ching-Ni right.

00:12:00.648 --> 00:12:04.566
Did you say Hua-Ching-Ni, hua-ching-ni, hua-ching?

00:12:04.667 --> 00:12:06.259
Hua Qing Ni Okay.

00:12:07.100 --> 00:12:10.495
H-U-A-C-H-I-N-G-N-I.

00:12:10.495 --> 00:12:17.690
Okay, his last name was Ni, and in Chinese it's really Ni Hua Qing.

00:12:17.690 --> 00:12:24.543
But so he started to explain to me what Taoism was.

00:12:24.543 --> 00:12:59.116
And here was, all of a sudden, this system of values and virtues and generosity and grace and humility, how to live an effective and efficient life, how to go with the flow and float downstream, but not in a not give a heck way, but carefully watching out for the rocks and not running aground and still directing the boat, but at least not trying to paddle upstream.

00:12:59.116 --> 00:12:59.940
Right.

00:13:00.841 --> 00:13:21.611
And it didn't ask me to have to believe in anything that was spiritual, it was just an owner's manual for being human, and I took to it and I studied under Master Nee for eight years that's when I had to come to North Carolina and then I started.

00:13:21.611 --> 00:13:27.873
So when I came to North Carolina it went from being a mob lawyer to all public service.

00:13:27.873 --> 00:13:29.822
I was just a different human being.

00:13:29.822 --> 00:13:48.860
I started my whole life over and went back to school, got a master's in social work and eventually the crazy part about it is here I am, I guess, a Taoist Buddhist, in a very deeply Southern Christian town, right.

00:13:48.860 --> 00:13:53.392
And I wound up marrying a Southern Baptist Bible literalist, right.

00:13:55.422 --> 00:13:56.326
Yeah, so how does that?

00:13:56.326 --> 00:13:58.475
Yeah, yeah, that's, that's a big mismatch.

00:13:58.475 --> 00:13:59.580
Yeah, big mismatch.

00:13:59.620 --> 00:14:03.427
Well you would think so, but our values were the same.

00:14:03.427 --> 00:14:06.331
She's a saint.

00:14:06.331 --> 00:14:13.111
She sees somebody in need, she'll just move in and do what's necessary, without even thinking she should get a pat on the back.

00:14:13.111 --> 00:14:19.652
She's just a saint and she truly believes in taking care of the least of these.

00:14:19.652 --> 00:14:25.613
I mean, she's devoted to taking care of the least of these, as Jesus said.

00:14:25.613 --> 00:14:35.549
And she, funny, she would go off to church sometimes and she'd have like these sad big eyes and go hey, honey, what's what's wrong?

00:14:35.549 --> 00:14:52.804
She goes oh, you know, I love you so much and I just hate it that you're not going to go to heaven with me, because you know I hadn't been saved and, and I would say to her, you know well I'm, I hate it that you're not going to be reincarnated with me, so so wait a minute.

00:14:52.845 --> 00:14:55.009
So you know there are, there are.

00:14:55.009 --> 00:14:57.774
I'm wondering how does, how does the?

00:14:57.774 --> 00:14:59.595
What was the faith conflict y'all had?

00:14:59.595 --> 00:14:59.855
Like?

00:14:59.855 --> 00:15:00.754
Was that the only?

00:15:00.754 --> 00:15:04.256
How did y'all deal with that?

00:15:04.998 --> 00:15:06.278
Well, we didn't talk about it.

00:15:06.278 --> 00:15:25.657
It was really hard for me to believe that she could believe in all of the things that science said were impossible, like the world being 4,000 years old or you know, creationism and Adam and Eve, andah's ark and the like.

00:15:25.657 --> 00:15:43.403
But she deeply believed in those things and she'd look at my stuff, the taoism and you know it's like that confucius, pithy little couplets and stuff, and she just thought you know, that's just too weird, um, but well, well, but hold on.

00:15:43.443 --> 00:15:44.912
There's some gold nuggets here.

00:15:44.912 --> 00:15:45.274
I I want to.

00:15:45.274 --> 00:15:48.323
I want to just land us, just for best practice, for a second.

00:15:48.323 --> 00:15:58.311
So you're in a relationship, in a marriage that seems to be fairly happy and but you have two different faith perspectives right.

00:15:58.311 --> 00:16:03.628
That, for many people, their faith is is a, it's a core value to them.

00:16:03.628 --> 00:16:04.750
It's very important.

00:16:04.750 --> 00:16:06.273
It's sort of the centering for them.

00:16:06.273 --> 00:16:11.169
How did you handle conflicts with with your faith issue?

00:16:11.169 --> 00:16:14.408
Well, with the different faith there.

00:16:15.299 --> 00:16:18.890
Yeah, we just, we just we just stayed away from that.

00:16:18.890 --> 00:16:30.566
But where our faith would show itself is if she would say you know, I met this fellow today and he needed blah, blah, blah and I want to go do this and I would support her in that.

00:16:30.566 --> 00:16:42.673
And I think, yeah, you know, I mean it was also, you know, I remember hearing a quote from Jimmy Carter I am committed to doing as much as I can wherever I can, whenever I can, for as long as I can.

00:16:42.673 --> 00:16:48.371
And I, that was my, that was my motto of life.

00:16:48.371 --> 00:17:06.922
And so here was somebody who was my partner in that and it was my partner in, in, in doing our stuff and taking care of us and taking care of whatever, whatever we could, you know, in the world around us, and we were just partners in that and we worked very well together.

00:17:07.863 --> 00:17:08.684
You know, I would.

00:17:08.684 --> 00:17:13.513
She was very detail oriented, I was very big picture oriented.

00:17:13.513 --> 00:17:18.723
We would talk about something we'd want to do and I give her the big plan and then she would make it.

00:17:18.723 --> 00:17:23.828
So what happened is in Taoism.

00:17:23.828 --> 00:17:48.566
All of the wisdom of Taoism is contained in a book called the Tao Te Ching, and Ching in Chinese means a classical book, and Tao means the way, which there's going to be an interesting coincidence I'll talk about in a minute and Te means virtue, so the town can you spell that for us, for people listening?

00:17:49.366 --> 00:17:58.645
tau is t-a-o, okay, tay is t-e and ching is c-h-i-n-g.

00:17:58.645 --> 00:18:01.028
Got it and it is.

00:18:01.028 --> 00:18:05.855
It is 81 short, very, very one-page chapters.

00:18:05.855 --> 00:18:07.626
I'm reaching up here to see if I can.

00:18:11.423 --> 00:18:14.330
There it is, there it is Good shot, it is.

00:18:14.780 --> 00:18:17.567
It's 81 very short, pithy chapters.

00:18:17.567 --> 00:18:18.509
Oops, I'm sorry.

00:18:18.509 --> 00:18:19.111
What did I do?

00:18:19.111 --> 00:18:22.740
I still got you.

00:18:22.740 --> 00:18:23.743
Oh, you got me.

00:18:23.743 --> 00:18:24.326
Okay, I'm sorry.

00:18:24.326 --> 00:18:29.606
And it contains all of the wisdom of Taoism.

00:18:30.615 --> 00:18:34.875
And then what would happen is she would go off to church and then I'd say, how was church today?

00:18:34.875 --> 00:18:36.141
And I was kind of interested.

00:18:36.141 --> 00:18:42.769
And she would come back and she didn't like the exclusivity of her Southern baptism.

00:18:42.769 --> 00:18:44.656
She didn't like the my way or the highway passivity of her Southern baptism.

00:18:44.656 --> 00:18:45.618
She didn't like the my way or the highway.

00:18:45.618 --> 00:18:46.519
She didn't like that.

00:18:46.519 --> 00:18:50.786
They didn't care about, um, they didn't care about the environment.

00:18:50.786 --> 00:18:53.308
Uh, they didn't recycle.

00:18:53.308 --> 00:18:54.109
There was a lot of things.

00:18:54.109 --> 00:19:00.381
She didn't like it, but it was the religion that she grew up in.

00:19:00.401 --> 00:19:02.152
And she would come and I would ask her, like you know, what was the sermon about today?

00:19:02.152 --> 00:19:02.595
And she would tell me.

00:19:02.595 --> 00:19:09.227
And, as she would say it to me, I would say, well, gee, that's just like chapter 37 of the Dow to Jane.

00:19:09.227 --> 00:19:11.070
So I would start to look at that.

00:19:11.070 --> 00:19:17.585
And then one day I read something and I said, well, I wonder what the Bible says about that.

00:19:17.585 --> 00:19:20.018
So I Googled, googled what does the Bible say about this?

00:19:20.018 --> 00:19:33.961
And so I got all these biblical citations and I started reading through them all and it kind of blew me away, because I realized, um, and so I got all these biblical citations and I started reading through them all and it kind of blew me away because I realized, well, there ain't nothing different about this, this is the same thing, same stuff.

00:19:33.961 --> 00:19:53.157
And so then what I said well, I'm going to try something, I'm going to take a little, um, I'm going to take a little uh passage from the Tao Te Ching and see if I can turn it into a Christian prayer using the same Give us an example.

00:19:53.318 --> 00:19:54.240
Yeah, this is.

00:19:54.240 --> 00:19:55.925
This is very, very interesting.

00:19:55.925 --> 00:19:56.527
This is very.

00:19:56.527 --> 00:20:07.925
It's just interesting because I often say on our program that you'll find a lot of a lot of program, that you'll find a lot of, a lot of similarities in some.

00:20:07.925 --> 00:20:19.942
All of our ancient faith traditions, like, you'll find a lot of similarities and I think that's important because I think it expresses their universal rules or universal principles.

00:20:19.942 --> 00:20:27.880
That just makes us better human beings, and a part of that, bob is me saying.

00:20:27.880 --> 00:20:44.484
In addition, I think that the goal of our faith traditions Are to make us more of communal human beings, make us better, although it totally explains to me.

00:20:44.484 --> 00:20:45.925
Although it totally explains to me.

00:20:45.945 --> 00:21:05.433
However, when you talk about your wife's experience in the Baptist church, how they were very, very exclusive and didn't believe in things like recycling or taking care of the environment, well, that has a lot to do with their theological belief systems that the world is going to burn up anyway.

00:21:05.433 --> 00:21:10.108
Right, so we live for the next life, we don't live for this life.

00:21:10.108 --> 00:21:22.382
Tell me why that's problematic and tell me if you could just help us understand how you were able to, how you were able to sort of work through that with her.

00:21:22.382 --> 00:21:39.635
Maybe some of the the transitional moments she went through so hearing your experience in Taoism and what it says, and then what she was dealing with, and then how she worked through that, and then how you responded to that and then then, then, then take us in with that.

00:21:39.797 --> 00:21:53.744
uh, some syncretism there, because that's kind of what I well, like I say, I started looking at it and and and and playing around with the language and doing my research.

00:21:53.744 --> 00:22:04.859
And you know, the more I, the more I talked to her and the more I read and the more I studied the Bible, the more it became abundantly clear to me that it's the same stuff.

00:22:04.859 --> 00:22:09.449
So I started writing and then, every once in a while, I'd finish a chapter.

00:22:09.449 --> 00:22:12.604
You know I'd be happy to read you one.

00:22:12.604 --> 00:22:16.746
They only take 30 seconds, 40 seconds to read.

00:22:16.746 --> 00:22:23.121
And I would read it to her and she would look at it and she'd go, wow, where did you get that?

00:22:23.121 --> 00:22:24.003
That's so good.

00:22:24.003 --> 00:22:28.785
And I would say, well, this is the chapter in the Tao Te Ching I got it from.

00:22:28.785 --> 00:22:32.044
And she would read it and she goes, wow, that's really amazing.

00:22:32.044 --> 00:22:34.454
And do another one, Do another one.

00:22:34.575 --> 00:22:41.442
So eventually I did all 81 chapters and this national publisher, Kendall Hunt, picked it up and published it.

00:22:41.442 --> 00:22:43.969
What, yeah?

00:22:43.969 --> 00:22:53.509
And she sits down and reads it like a devotional now, every single day, and every time I would give her another chapter and read it.

00:22:53.509 --> 00:22:58.642
All of a sudden we would have this wonderful, deep discussion about our faith.

00:22:58.642 --> 00:23:00.526
Okay, All right, Okay, Okay.

00:23:02.214 --> 00:23:07.236
So, okay, let's, let's, let's do a test run, all right, okay?

00:23:07.236 --> 00:23:08.971
So look, look what I got here, bob.

00:23:08.971 --> 00:23:14.287
Okay, so, everyone who's listening right now, bob and I, I have my Bible.

00:23:14.287 --> 00:23:16.161
Look at that big old old.

00:23:16.161 --> 00:23:19.082
Do I need to get my glasses too?

00:23:19.082 --> 00:23:22.962
I got my glasses and Bob's going to read.

00:23:22.962 --> 00:23:25.636
And there you go, he's going to read.

00:23:25.636 --> 00:23:28.720
I'm the way we're going to talk about his, his work there in a moment.

00:23:28.720 --> 00:23:42.707
I got your information for the, for the audience, and I'm going to try to see if my brain will immediately click with something in the new Testament or in the Proverbs or Psalms that sounds very similar to what he's doing.

00:23:42.707 --> 00:23:50.740
And if you guys have your Bible, if you're listening, I want you to pull out your Bibles and I want you to kind of see if it makes sense to you.

00:23:50.740 --> 00:23:53.267
Okay, so you're on, bob, you're on, let's do this.

00:23:55.839 --> 00:23:59.729
Okay, so the very first chapter of the Tao Te Ching.

00:23:59.729 --> 00:24:03.917
I think you're going to be able to connect it to Genesis immediately.

00:24:03.917 --> 00:24:16.209
It reads this is the Tao Te Ching, you know, translated from the Chinese into English the Tao and remember the word Tao means the way and what did Jesus say what did Jesus say?

00:24:16.411 --> 00:24:20.042
I am the way I am, the way, the truth and the light.

00:24:20.042 --> 00:24:33.349
Yes, there you go, so that's why I named the book I Am the Way, because was Jesus saying I am the way, or was he saying I am the Tao?

00:24:33.349 --> 00:24:34.071
I don't know, I don't know.

00:24:34.133 --> 00:24:40.365
Okay, so here's how the first chapter reads the Tao that can be described is not the eternal Tao.

00:24:40.365 --> 00:24:44.645
The name that can be spoken is not the eternal name.

00:24:44.645 --> 00:24:48.203
The nameless is the boundary of heaven and earth.

00:24:48.203 --> 00:24:51.183
The named is the mother of creation.

00:24:51.183 --> 00:24:59.586
Freed from desire, you can see the hidden mystery by having desire, you can only see what is visibly real.

00:24:59.586 --> 00:25:03.704
Yet mystery and reality emerge from the same source.

00:25:03.704 --> 00:25:05.960
The source is called darkness.

00:25:05.960 --> 00:25:10.563
Darkness on from darkness, the beginning of all understanding.

00:25:10.563 --> 00:25:13.557
Yeah.

00:25:13.616 --> 00:25:13.998
Okay.

00:25:14.018 --> 00:25:16.506
So a little tough for the Western mind.

00:25:16.974 --> 00:25:20.434
That is, that is, but but the one thing, that, okay.

00:25:20.434 --> 00:25:33.461
So you said and I'm going to go to so now for the Bible thumpers, for the Bible folk, right, you said darkness.

00:25:33.461 --> 00:25:35.381
Right, it was darkness, darkness.

00:25:35.381 --> 00:25:43.163
Then immediately my brain started hearing that, Right In the beginning, right In the beginning, god created the heavens and the earth.

00:25:43.163 --> 00:25:46.394
In the beginning, god created the heavens and the earth.

00:25:46.394 --> 00:25:57.663
The earth was formless and void, and darkness was over the surface of the deep and the spirit of God was moving upon the surface of the water.

00:25:57.663 --> 00:26:05.476
So, again, what you're saying in the Tao, and then what I just read, is that there's a commonality of what Things being created from darkness.

00:26:05.476 --> 00:26:07.017
There's a commonality of what Things being created from darkness.

00:26:07.037 --> 00:26:14.520
There's darkness and also, if you read into that, you'll feel the sense of mystery yeah, that there's a mystery there.

00:26:14.520 --> 00:26:18.343
So there's both a mystery, and then there's the creation.

00:26:18.343 --> 00:26:32.392
So even Genesis talks about this combination and relationship between the mystery and the creation, the things that we can touch and feel and that which we can only sense and imagine.

00:26:33.051 --> 00:26:34.272
Okay, let's do one more.

00:26:34.272 --> 00:26:34.992
Let's do one more.

00:26:42.214 --> 00:26:42.335
Wait.

00:26:42.335 --> 00:26:44.319
Before we do, let me read what I wrote in the Christian version of chapter one.

00:26:44.319 --> 00:26:48.669
Okay, so what I wrote, that Connie would read my wife, she would read it and she would get it immediately, and I think you will too.

00:26:48.669 --> 00:26:52.705
The God that can be described is not the true God.

00:26:52.705 --> 00:27:04.507
The name that can be spoken is not the name of God, because, remember, he said, I am, and even among Jews, they never say the name of God.

00:27:04.507 --> 00:27:09.007
They have this unpronounceable name, yahweh, yahweh.

00:27:09.007 --> 00:27:12.986
So the God that can be described is not the true God.

00:27:12.986 --> 00:27:15.923
The name that can be spoken is not the name of God.

00:27:15.923 --> 00:27:18.182
God is unnameable.

00:27:18.182 --> 00:27:19.701
God is the origin.

00:27:19.701 --> 00:27:22.734
Naming God is the beginning of religion.

00:27:22.734 --> 00:27:26.266
Let go and you find God.

00:27:26.266 --> 00:27:27.718
Holding on.

00:27:27.718 --> 00:27:29.183
You see the creation.

00:27:29.183 --> 00:27:33.526
The unnameable and the creation are ultimately the same.

00:27:33.526 --> 00:27:35.740
Their source cannot be known.

00:27:35.740 --> 00:27:42.798
All that can be known is that I am is In the beginning.

00:27:42.798 --> 00:27:43.602
There was emptiness.

00:27:43.602 --> 00:27:45.596
Emptiness then creation.

00:27:45.596 --> 00:27:49.299
Thus the mystery from which all wonders arise.

00:27:50.661 --> 00:27:57.768
There you go, Boom Boom Okay let's do one more.

00:27:58.548 --> 00:27:59.388
Okay, let's do.

00:27:59.388 --> 00:28:01.872
I'll do chapter five from the Tao Te Ching.

00:28:04.238 --> 00:28:10.788
Okay, and remember, guys, the Tao Te Ching is spelled T-A-O-T-E-C-H-I-N-G.

00:28:15.720 --> 00:28:16.259
Oh wait, let me.

00:28:16.259 --> 00:28:17.583
Let me just do chapter two.

00:28:17.583 --> 00:28:24.461
Sure, so, from the Tao, when people see things as beautiful, ugliness is created.

00:28:24.461 --> 00:28:28.076
When people see things as good, evil is created.

00:28:28.076 --> 00:28:37.597
Being and non-being produce each other, difficult and easy, complement each other Long and short, define each other.

00:28:37.597 --> 00:28:40.544
High and low oppose each other.

00:28:40.544 --> 00:28:43.288
Fore and aft follow each other.

00:28:43.375 --> 00:28:48.463
Therefore, the master can act without doing anything and teach without saying a word.

00:28:48.463 --> 00:28:51.584
Things come her way and she does not stop them.

00:28:51.584 --> 00:28:53.961
Things leave and she lets them go.

00:28:53.961 --> 00:28:59.325
She has without possessing and acts without any expectations.

00:28:59.325 --> 00:29:02.785
When her work is done, she takes no credit.

00:29:02.785 --> 00:29:05.180
That is why it will last forever.

00:29:05.180 --> 00:29:15.017
So you can see, in the Tao Te Ching, what they're teaching is the idea of duality.

00:29:15.017 --> 00:29:25.906
You know that when we create good, we're also creating evil, and so there might be a way of unifying and having neither good nor evil in a unity of just being different reflections, and that's one of the Taoist principles.

00:29:25.906 --> 00:29:37.403
Another Taoist principle is wu-wei doing, not doing, in other words, understanding and mastering something to the point where you can do it as an automatic response in life.

00:29:37.403 --> 00:29:51.440
And also there's this non-attachment, this sense of non-attachment, and there's also this sense of not putting the focus and the importance on the work and not on the person.

00:29:51.440 --> 00:29:52.963
Right right.

00:29:53.164 --> 00:29:55.423
Okay, so I have Isaiah.

00:29:55.423 --> 00:29:57.563
I had to look this up real fast.

00:29:57.563 --> 00:30:02.048
I have Isaiah 45 talking about duality.

00:30:02.048 --> 00:30:10.365
Isaiah 45 says this that there is no one beside me.

00:30:10.365 --> 00:30:11.146
I'm the Lord.

00:30:11.146 --> 00:30:12.209
There is no other.

00:30:12.209 --> 00:30:24.044
I'm the one forming light and creating darkness, casting well-being and creating calamity.

00:30:24.044 --> 00:30:29.694
I am the Lord who does all these things.

00:30:29.694 --> 00:30:32.744
Again, that's Isaiah 45, 7.

00:30:32.744 --> 00:30:41.244
When the Lord is speaking to the prophet and saying I created there's duality here.

00:30:41.244 --> 00:30:42.701
I created light and darkness.

00:30:42.701 --> 00:30:46.568
If you want to look for causality, it's me.

00:30:46.568 --> 00:30:48.978
I'm doing, you know I'm so.

00:30:48.978 --> 00:30:52.027
So that that's very, very interesting, very, very interesting.

00:30:52.655 --> 00:30:56.086
So also there's the idea that rain falls on the good and evil.

00:30:57.276 --> 00:30:58.643
Right, that's right.

00:30:58.643 --> 00:31:01.095
Jesus said that it falls on the just and the unjust.

00:31:02.176 --> 00:31:12.462
Just in the unjust, and so Jesus does not decide on what his gifts are going to, based on the things that we mere mortals judge on.

00:31:12.462 --> 00:31:16.797
They're all children of God, and so there is the duality.

00:31:16.797 --> 00:31:21.976
But then there's also that they're all children of God, and so they're all the same in that regard.

00:31:21.976 --> 00:31:29.702
So this is what I wrote in chapter two If you view some things as beautiful, you'll view others as ugly.

00:31:29.702 --> 00:31:33.086
If you judge some people as good, you'll judge others as bad.

00:31:33.907 --> 00:31:35.269
Opposites create each other.

00:31:35.269 --> 00:31:41.295
There's no easy without difficult, no long without short, no high without low, no before without after.

00:31:41.295 --> 00:31:45.942
But Christ transcends opposites without after.

00:31:45.942 --> 00:31:46.623
But Christ transcends opposites.

00:31:46.623 --> 00:31:50.409
He acts without acting and teaches beyond his words.

00:31:50.409 --> 00:31:59.576
He does not resist what is.

00:31:59.576 --> 00:32:00.417
Thus his influence becomes irresistible.

00:32:00.417 --> 00:32:00.980
He owns nothing, yet has all.

00:32:00.980 --> 00:32:02.603
He acts without regard to what people think.

00:32:02.603 --> 00:32:05.730
He is Lord, yet sees others as equal.

00:32:05.730 --> 00:32:09.557
He fashions miracles and shirks pride.

00:32:09.557 --> 00:32:12.903
He places importance only on the message.

00:32:12.903 --> 00:32:15.568
When his work is done, he moves on.

00:32:15.568 --> 00:32:18.141
That is why his works are eternal.

00:32:18.141 --> 00:32:21.230
So you can see the Tao in that.

00:32:21.230 --> 00:32:29.417
But then, as a Christian, you can easily say that this is a devotional talking about the character of Jesus.

00:32:29.417 --> 00:32:38.539
What kind of a person does he, and what is it about him that we want to model, so that we can be more Christ-like in our lives?

00:32:39.881 --> 00:32:47.431
Yeah, and you know what's powerful about that is it really gets to the morality of a thing.

00:32:47.431 --> 00:32:49.340
It gets to the morality.

00:32:49.340 --> 00:32:57.169
So what I mean by morality, it gets to the morality and ethics of the principle, right?

00:32:57.169 --> 00:33:01.035
So it's not always just about the scripture.

00:33:01.035 --> 00:33:13.681
So some people who are listening to this, they're going to go man, you're reading something from the Dow and Bailey, now you're reading a scripture and you're you're making these uh, uh things that the scripture would never say.

00:33:13.820 --> 00:33:24.903
No, listen, an important piece for for us to get is that our Christian faith has principles and ethics.

00:33:24.903 --> 00:33:45.732
That does not exist from nothing and nowhere, but there were ancient principles, there were cultural principles and moralities that people followed, that were sort of universal, and this is what the book of Proverbs talks about.

00:33:45.732 --> 00:33:50.307
When it talks about in all, you're getting get understanding.

00:33:50.307 --> 00:34:04.884
Knowledge is one thing, but knowing how to apply that and then knowing what is the ethic motive and intent behind a thing is very important, which is what Jesus promoted.

00:34:04.884 --> 00:34:19.583
Instance you know, in the Gospels of Matthew, some of the religious leaders said to Jesus look, why are your disciples not washing their hands before they eat?

00:34:19.583 --> 00:34:27.295
And Jesus says well, you know, it's not so much about, it's not what goes into the person, that files, it's what comes out of a person.

00:34:27.295 --> 00:34:28.818
That's a principle.

00:34:28.818 --> 00:34:30.039
What principle?

00:34:30.039 --> 00:34:44.186
He got that from somewhere, more than likely probably from Egypt, but there was some teaching and training, some ancient teaching and training and wisdom that helped him understand his Christian faith that way.

00:34:44.206 --> 00:34:45.331
So, okay, bob, we're going to come back on the other side.

00:34:45.331 --> 00:34:45.873
You hold on for a second.

00:34:45.873 --> 00:34:50.766
We're going to take a quick break for our YouTube fans.

00:34:50.766 --> 00:34:55.088
Okay, just a second.

00:34:55.088 --> 00:34:57.355
Well, man, we're having a wonderful conversation with Bob Martin.

00:34:57.355 --> 00:35:02.684
We're talking about all the differences and the similarities between our faith group.

00:35:02.684 --> 00:35:13.021
So here's what I need you to do If you're listening to this, I want you to make sure you go to our YouTube page Words for Change YouTube page where you can learn more.

00:35:13.295 --> 00:35:17.384
If you are watching this, you can see this pop up on the screen right now.

00:35:17.384 --> 00:35:21.025
There's information there for you.

00:35:21.025 --> 00:35:25.585
Also, I want you to go ahead on and subscribe.

00:35:25.585 --> 00:35:38.380
Go ahead on and subscribe to our YouTube page and you can make sure that you join us here on Apple's podcast, spotify, and you can send me a message.

00:35:38.380 --> 00:35:38.842
Let me know.

00:35:38.842 --> 00:35:45.483
Listen, I want to hear an episode about this, and this episode that you're doing with Bob was great.

00:35:45.483 --> 00:35:52.094
Here's some questions that I have for Bob, and we'll do our best and make sure we answer those questions.

00:35:52.094 --> 00:36:19.576
Okay, so, bob, as we move forward to the next stage, now that we've you've transitioned, you, you're in Taoism or you're practicing as a part of your, your spiritual development, tell us what work are you doing now that?

00:36:20.277 --> 00:36:26.539
your Taoist is feeding and how you serve the world.

00:36:26.539 --> 00:36:46.873
Well, so I went, I was baptized five years ago, six years ago now, in the United Church of Christ, which is a progressive church, and our particular church is broad enough in its philosophy to be able it's funny, this is a funny story.

00:36:46.873 --> 00:37:11.141
So I can say the UCC is a pretty progressive church, right, and I always thought that a you know, I, always I as the more that I read and the more that I learned about Chris, even early on in my life, when I was introduced to Jesus for the first time, I always loved him as I saw him as a great master, as a wisdom master.

00:37:11.141 --> 00:37:30.286
The question of his divinity, I'll be very honest with you, even today, is something which I just consider to be above my pay grade and not particularly important, because I honor the teachings and I honor who he was.

00:37:30.286 --> 00:37:51.467
We had a good conversation in my Sunday school class once and it was this If a person claims to be a Christian and believes in the divinity of Christ but doesn't follow his ways and is greedy and is harmful, is he a Christian?

00:37:51.467 --> 00:38:02.335
And in the other way, if a person follows the ways of Jesus and acts the way that Jesus would like him to act, but doesn't believe in the divinity of Jesus.

00:38:02.335 --> 00:38:03.677
Is he a Christian?

00:38:03.677 --> 00:38:08.643
So those, those are you know, kind of questions that I have.

00:38:08.643 --> 00:38:14.250
So now Connie is very happy because I'm going to be saved.

00:38:14.250 --> 00:38:22.099
I'm saved, but you know, to answer your question, it really needs going into.

00:38:22.099 --> 00:38:24.501
The question of what about?

00:38:24.501 --> 00:38:39.065
This exclusivity thing is something which turns a lot of people off from the church because it's just hard to believe that 90% or 70% of the world is condemned to hell.

00:38:39.065 --> 00:38:52.331
It's just hard for people to accept that whole thing and I have some thoughts on that and I'm fortunate that I go to a church where I can express those thoughts.

00:38:52.875 --> 00:38:56.005
But you know, people always are citing John 3.16,.

00:38:56.005 --> 00:39:12.804
You know, no one can get to the Father except through me, and I question whether a spiritual being, when they said the word me, would be referring to the sack of skin that existed on the planet or was referring to their spiritual nature.

00:39:12.804 --> 00:39:28.503
If me referred to unconditional love and you substitute that for me, then it would read no one could get to the father without engaging in unconditional love.

00:39:28.503 --> 00:39:31.967
Now that makes a lot of sense and like.

00:39:31.967 --> 00:39:50.505
And the other thing that I kind of believe is that, you know, people talk about the Trinity the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit, and that they are all one God in three manifestations, which would mean that God equals Jesus, equals the Holy Spirit.

00:39:51.208 --> 00:39:58.550
And I don't know anybody that doesn't believe that the holy spirit was, has boundaries and only exists in certain countries.

00:39:58.550 --> 00:40:12.355
And it seems to me that the holy spirit is, is, is, is a force for good that inspires people all over the world, which means that jesus inspires people all over the world, and so means that Jesus inspires people all over the world.

00:40:12.355 --> 00:40:25.204
And so you know, if you, if you have a broader view of John 3, 16, and you take into the spiritual aspects of it, then you know we're all, we're all saved.

00:40:26.728 --> 00:40:46.422
Yeah, I mean that's, that's definitely a universalist viewpoint of salvation and the reason why, particularly For even I'm just going to say this for evangelicals that those are some of the people who follow me not all, but some and I and I appreciate them.

00:40:46.422 --> 00:41:02.784
For them it's about doctrine, it's about right, doctrine, right, and that that is the, that is the maximum, even though they would probably not want and phrases which I get it.

00:41:02.784 --> 00:41:19.827
I understand all of that Once you begin to grow and see different perspectives.

00:41:19.827 --> 00:41:33.327
For instance, not all Christians, I would just say, in the United States in particular, I mean I can go drill down deeper than that they don't all believe in the Trinitarian belief, right.

00:41:34.155 --> 00:41:48.492
There's a faction in the Pentecostal church called oneness doctrine, where they believe that Jesus, that God, jesus, what they call homoousis, but that Jesus wasn't God.

00:41:48.492 --> 00:41:54.126
God is the only God, it can only be one God, which is why they call it oneness doctrine, right.

00:41:54.126 --> 00:42:03.362
And then, when you get to the Council of Nicaea 325, the big split was over what?

00:42:03.362 --> 00:42:05.840
The divinity of Christ?

00:42:05.840 --> 00:42:09.800
Was he man and God, or was he man?

00:42:09.800 --> 00:42:10.583
Well, guess what?

00:42:10.583 --> 00:42:40.561
The Western Church won that argument, which is why we have it in our canon in the West, but guess what the Eastern church don't hold fast to a Trinitarian doctrine to understand that theology is a working practice of trying to give voice, word and explanation to this mystery and thing we call God.

00:42:40.561 --> 00:42:42.539