#52 Exploring Love, Justice, and Peace Not War

Speaker 1: 0:00

Hello, words for Change podcast. This is your host, lionel. Hey, I want to talk to you today about our special guest man. We have Laura Hartley coming through today and I'm excited with opportunity to talk with her. Laura is in the UK and she does a lot of work in the realm of justice and activism as it relates to climate change, social systems, changing structures, so forth and so on. And so what makes her interview so powerful? Because you all know right now what's happening in the news. There's a lot going on in the news and we are doing everything in our power to bring clarity and insight and an alternative viewpoint into what's happening. Obviously, these social issues and the social climate is very difficult that no one personal podcast can solve, but we can give an alternative view and that's what we do by giving an alternative view from a biblical perspective, sometimes from a social perspective. That helps us to bring clarity to you. And so, hey, if this podcast is having any kind of value in your life, if it's giving you any kind of support or different ways of thinking about things or living your life differently, consider supporting us on Patreon. Very, very simple. You can give a one time gift. It can be five, 10, 20, $30. It can be a monthly support for $5, $1. How does it help? Well, it helps us to host our podcast platform, buzzsprout. Right, they charge me a monthly fee for that, for the microphone it costs for me to market the podcast. It costs money for that. So I market through Buzzsprout, I market through Instagram, I market through Facebook marketing campaigns all these different things we have to do, as well as studio upgrades. So soundboard equipment, computer screens all of this stuff costs a lot of money, and so you can become a part of it. As a matter of fact, one of our supporters sent me a text message and said hey, listen, I would really love for you to do a episode on religious issues that are happening between Islam, israel, and we'd love to hear your religious perspective on the Gaza Strip controversy. So, hey, that's the kind of impact and influence you have as a supporter of the show. Again, any small amount will do. Obviously, the link will be down in the show notes. So this is one of the ways that you can support the Words for Change podcast, as we do our best, very best, to compensate our guests whenever we can give you good content. Time, energy and resource that is spent on editing the podcast. So when a podcast comes out, it has to be edited. All of these things cost money and when you support the podcast, this is how you are enabling us to continue getting the message out. So, once again, I just want to thank you for being a dedicated listening audience and I want you to enjoy this very, very enlightening conversation with Laura Hartley as we talk about the social change factor and the word for change, podcast, mission, dream and goals. So enjoy, laura. How are you?

Speaker 3: 3:08

Hello, I am well. Thank you, it is so good to be here. Thank you for having me on.

Speaker 1: 3:13

Absolutely, I wouldn't have it no other way. So, for those of you, let me introduce to you our special guest, laura Hartley. She is a phenomenal activist and coach and she is doing some work all throughout the world as it relates to social change and activism. So I'm excited to have this conversation, and Laura and I talked just a few minutes ago and she was like well, tell me a little bit about your audience. I said, listen, our people are dealing with church, after church or after religion. So that's some of the issues we deal with, our people deal with. But in the middle of all that, people have life circumstances, situations that they're busy with, and when they listen to this podcast, they're trying to figure out how can their world be better, how can their situation be better, what resources and what tools can help them to improve their life. That's why people listen to podcasts Laura, I'm telling you right and they're looking to find experts like yourself who can help provide some of those resources and those tools that can help them grow or do the things that they so deeply decided to do and be. So I'm always saying, hey, our job is to help to get you from where you are to where you want to be Right. So, laura, why don't you introduce yourself the way you'd like to introduce yourself to our audience today?

Speaker 3: 4:49

Ooh okay. So I'm an activist and a coach and I run an online school for changemakers. So I work at this intersection of inner and outer change and I really work to kind of bridge, like system thinking, like how do we address the big problems about time like capitalism, climate change, patriarchy while also looking within ourselves, doing this self work, to examine how these systems show up in us, as us and through us. So all of my work is rooted in the climate crisis, in the emergencies and the realities of this time, and I'm really starting to empower all of us to make a difference in the world and to live our most meaningful life at the same time.

Speaker 1: 5:36

Awesome. So, Laura, how did you get into this work? I know how I got into it or I am. I will talk about myself, but we're here to talk about you. We'll talk about myself in a minute, but we'll talk about you right now. So how did you get into this kind of work? What led you there?

Speaker 3: 5:51

It's a good question. You know there's a couple of different influences, you know. Firstly, like, with regard to coaching, I grew up around coaching. My mother was a coach, surrounded by personal development from like a very, very young age, and it wasn't something that I necessarily appreciated at that time, but it taught me very early on that I had a love for good questions, and that, for me, is what coaching is about that we have so many answers in this world, but we do not have good questions, and good questions to elicit more generative responses and new perspectives and alternatives. But I'm also an activist and as an activist, particularly in the climate sphere, I saw huge amounts of burnout. I saw a lot of us trying to make change using the same energy of the system, and that certainly was my experience, and I was curious then about how do we start to bridge these two worlds. How do we look at a spiritual response to the climate crisis? How do we look at the spiritual purpose of our lives and how do we then take that from just being self-work, where we only look inwards, to looking outwards, to kind of remaking our communities, remaking our worlds, with the foundations that I think we all want of love, of justice, of peace, compassion, and that's the space that I decided to work in and to see what I could do to influence that in the world that I live.

Speaker 1: 7:08

Yeah, hey. So isn't that a little bit utopianism now To think that we can? Yes, I'm just Laura. That's the question going in my mind right now. So I just opened my mouth and said that but what do you say to someone who's listening? And they thought you know, Laura, it's good and I think that's great. But you know, the world is the world and there are people who are good and there are people who are bad, and there are people who will succeed and there are others who will not, and you just have to let the world be. How do you deal with that?

Speaker 3: 7:52

So you know one, I don't believe in a utopia, I'm not pursuing a utopia. A utopia is lovely, right, but you know, in a utopia there's no conflict, there's no disagreements, there's no people don't cause harm, like none of that, like in the world that I imagine, in a more just world and a more regenerative world. All of those things still happen, but what we have is the foundations within our structures and within our systems, within our communities, within our lives, that are based on values, that are based on things like compassion, that are based on respect, that are based on connection to each other and to the earth. There is a foundational belief to my work that I don't believe people are good or bad. I think people are the products of the lives that they've had. People are products of the way that they see the world, and the way that I see the world is that it is shaped by imagination. Right, it is not just this way. It never has just been this way. The world is created by people, but unfortunately, the world as it is was not created with the well-being and benefit of most people in mind, and so, when we're looking at remaking the world, we need to come back to the sense of actually, one, having a bit of audacity and a bit of belief to believe that we can actually remake it. Two, having a vision for something. And three, having the emotional intelligence and the spiritual intelligence to be able to talk about hard things, to handle hard things to be in conflict spaces, to be in disagreement with each other without resorting to violence, without resorting to harm and without resorting to punishment. So it's not Utopia that I'm after, but it is a space that is more generative and perhaps a bit idealistic. But why not be, you know?

Speaker 1: 9:34

Yeah, it is. Well, it's a bit, it is idealistic. I mean, thinking that we can make the world a better place is idealistic, right? So here's another question for you, laura. So I'm just playing a little devil's advocate, okay. So, because I know what people are thinking, I know what people are thinking. People are thinking about the need for capitalism. People are thinking about, right, uh-oh, uh-oh, yeah, there we go. People are thinking about saying things like capitalism is the best economic system in the world. You remember years ago doing George W Bush presidency in the United States, which I'm sure you're familiar with. He said it was like well, what's the? Why are we going into Iraq and why are we doing all this thing? And he said our job, it's a spread of capitalism, spread democracy around the world. So there's definitely idealism when it comes to trying to to Create some sort of egalitarian society, more egalitarian. When you have mindsets like that, that our job is Manifest destiny is to turn things, to make the world the way we want to make it what would you say to to that, and how do you Maybe provide a counter to that argument?

Speaker 3: 11:14

Yeah. So look, I don't think there's one bright system for the world or one perfect system, and you know there are many issues with capitalism that I can certainly go into, but when we're talking about well, you know, is it perhaps wrong to say Well, it's like pushing one world view or this one idea that we think is best. It's really about coming back to values. Right, it's about coming back to what matters, and one of the places that I learnt this best was I was incredibly fortunate, in 2016, to visit Bhutan, which is this very small country between India and China, in the middle of the Himalayas, and it's famous for its development philosophy of gross national happiness and it's a lovely title, but, you know, sometimes gets mixed reactions but really, what it's about is about values and it's about measuring what matters, and so it's quite a robust system that actually measures everything in the country, from their time use to the education, living standards, their community vitality, and they consider that to be more important than gross domestic product, than GDP. Hey, and so, when we're talking about well, what are the problems with capitalism, and you know why would we look at remaking the world, and can we impose a point of view? No, we absolutely can't. But capitalism isn't a system that measures what matters. You know, none of our countries the US, canada, australia we do not measure what matters. We do not measure what makes us happy. We do not measure what makes us a cohesive, robust, loving society, you know. Instead, you know we measure everything that doesn't matter, and so that's what we're coming back to here. How do we start to return within our lives to look at what's important? How do we start to reframe our communities so that we're not just caught up in hustle culture? And we need to make growth and we need to make profit and we need to just keep growing year on year, on year on year and yet and actually like, actually no, like, what do we need, what do we value and how do we start to live our lives from that place?

Speaker 1: 13:04

That's where the space that I'm interested, Well, you know, and I'm wondering so, when you're talking about Measuring happiness and measuring things that matter, so forth and so on, that that really depends on who you're talking to, right? who you're talking to matters, you know, and I think some of who you talk whoever you're talking to will determine what's important and what matters to them and why it's important. For some people, you know, capitalism is Very important and they see that as what matters right, so they judge outcome by that is what matters. No matter, doesn't really matter how you feel about things or your ideas per se. What matters is how can we Shape the world in very physical ways that benefit our desire, and that's just the way the world works. You know and I'm being polite when I say that Right, the world works that way, meaning that people are always gonna go after their own best interest, right, nations are gonna go after communities, right, families. They're gonna go after their own best interest. And you know there's does your Philosophy or idea about creating a better world. How do you account For people always looking for our own best interest? Because some people would say, lord, that what you're trying to do is Is gonna benefit you in some way, shape or form, right, so there's a, there's definitely some ego there, right? I mean, no one can deny that. So how do you deal? How do you balance the two with? Okay, here is what I think the world should be versus what this driven prophet society think the world should be Right.

Speaker 3: 14:59

So is that I think we're assuming that what's best for us as individuals somehow means it's not best for somebody else, right? So this kind of ideology there is like, well, what's good for me is not good for you, and I just need to look out for myself this story of separation that permeates our entire culture. It's the same story that says that humans are separate from the natural world, that it's us versus them, that it's David versus Goliath, and that there's always this battle to be had. I don't think that story is necessarily true, because I actually think our mutual well-being is tied up in each other, and if you are struggling, so am I, and if I am struggling, so are you. And so when we're looking at capitalism and the idea that, well, it's just about like holding onto capitalism and capitalism is what matters, like why is that? What do we think capitalism is giving us? Because it's probably actually not giving us that. You know, my problems with capitalism come down to three parts. The first is that it's a system that pursues infinite growth on a finite planet. It is obsessed with growth. It only knows how to define success as growth, but it's not actually possible within planetary boundaries, and we're seeing that at the moment. Edward Abbey had a wonderful quote where he said growth for the sake of growth is the ideology of the cancer cell, you know. The second is that its foundation is scarcity, and this is what most people don't realize. You cannot have infinite growth without scarcity. To drive that growth, that scarcity shows up in a million different ways, from wealth inequality to FOMO marketing and scarcity and urgency marketing to planned obsolescence, where we design our devices to die before they have to. Most people would think that this is crazy, right? This is the system that we live in. And the third is that it devalues all beautiful, complex living resources, like oceans and forests and jungles, to lifeless resources. They only have value when we can extract something from them and take something from them Not inherent to who they are.

Speaker 1: 16:49

That's a different way of belonging, right? That's a different way of belonging in the world, like so what you're saying and it didn't mean to cut you off, but that's what you just described is a very different way of seeing the world. But see, laura, the problem is people don't see the world like that, and To me it always seems like the people who think the way you think it are, not the people who are winning.

Speaker 3: 17:22

Frankly, the world that we live in is crumbling like. There is no denying that we are living through the unmaking of a world. Okay right now, whether we want to or not, whether we acknowledge it or not, we might think that there's people in the power and it's people at the top, and that's wonderful, and it's out there to protect the status quo as is, even though it's deeply unjust. But you know, we can look at the last few years and we can certainly look at what is likely to come over the next 10 to 15 years, and we are seeing a world that is rapidly destabilizing, and so our choice in this time is whether we continue to believe in the ideology and the beliefs that are supporting the world as it is, that are upholding it, that says that we're all separate, that the earth is just a resource to be extracted from, that scarcity Is inherent and that we have to fight for what is ours, or we can start to actually reframe our narratives of the world and start to see it as a place that is generative, that is abundant, that we're in community, that part of how humans have survived is not just survival of the fittest, but because of our skills in cooperation, because of our diversity, and start to lean into rewriting a new story. And this is this is subtle work, this isn't really obvious work. This isn't like the thing you'll see out there on, like CNN or the mainstream, but it is what I think real change comes from.

Speaker 2: 18:35

The side of the picture justifies the prayer of every man, of every civilized man, that war should be a body and that the suffering, cruelty, corruption and demoralization that's following its train Should be, as far as we can bring it about, lifted as a burden from the human race.

Speaker 1: 19:03

Yeah, okay, so what? What are awesome, awesome vision, right, and so what we're gonna do right now, we're gonna switch segments a little bit lower, so we're gonna, we're gonna change up the game on you a little bit, and so, and then we come back. I want to talk about this whole thing about disruption. I want to have that conversation with you. I want to ask you this this whole thing, you you talk about being a changemaker. You have a model that you use and call like what is your role in change making? And part of that model you talk about being a disruptor. Um, what does that mean? So when people hear the word disruption, that may get nervous.

Speaker 3: 19:47

You know, I think we need a little disruption. Frankly, you know, when we're talking about activism or change making, it really like to establish that I think every role is needed. Like the word activist is so loaded. We often think that it's only that role being on the front lines or at the front of marches with the megaphone or whatever it might mean. But I think at this time, we need people to be revolutionizing Accounting, we need people to be doing music and art, we need people in farming and agriculture, like we need every single role that there is. So, whatever it is that people feel called to do, that is where you're meant to be working and that is where your activism lies. But when I talk about disruption, I often say that there's a framework of change making roles that people can fall into. Disruption, healing and aiding and building and and disruption is really about shining a light on injustice. It's very often those people that you think of as activists. Sometimes it's within a corporate sphere. Suddenly you've gone in and you feel like okay, like how do I start to change things up here? This isn't working law professions, journalism, anywhere. That's like saying, actually, you know what? Like no, this is not working for us. This isn't right, this isn't okay and this is gonna stop here. That is the disruption role, and we need far more of that in this world.

Speaker 1: 20:58

Right. So so when I think about this for okay, so yeah when I think about disrupting Laura, I think about Jesus. Jesus, you know, in 1st century Palestine he definitely disrupted the Roman Empire and you know, I always try to tell people who are religious, like, if you can see Jesus as a First of all, he was a Galilean farm preacher, right, he walks on the backside of the Midian Desert Talking his crazy stuff that people just had a problem with, right, but you mean, he was one of a line of messiahs and people need to understand that, that that Jesus was not the only one walking around saying that he was a messiah. There were other people before him and there were actually Real circumstances and battles that people fought before he came on the scene and After he came on the scene to usher in what they thought was the kingdom of God, which was literally the rang of God in the world. So, or in their particular degree, got graphical location. So we talk about, when I think about change making benefit, disruptor, what you're talking about, you know, I think that's that was essential to Jesus ministry and if I can get people to understand that, I think we will be more Participatory in how we we work in the world and how we view and practice religion, in particular, christianity. I did another interview with a, with a Gentleman, recently. He's a Muslim, he practices Islam, he's been, you know, my entire life, and we talked about this. Look, we talked about the similarities between Christianity Islam is. There's a lot, a lot of similarities, but you know, what was central to our conversation about Islam and Christianity in particular was that both of them have judgment within the whole ideology, like judgment, which is another way of saying accountability, right Based on how you live your life on earth. So what good do you do to other people with a term in as, as you will, your life, your, your goodness or blessings, or in the next life? That's essential to some of these doctrinal religious beliefs, right? So with with? With that being said, laura, I'm always interested in a conversation about Jesus that requires you to participate in something, which is where you've been talking about so far. You've been saying, look, yes, this is not a, this is not a is, it's not a new utopian world. Like you, you have to participate In the world and climate change. There are actually things you can do To help lessen that blow, that footprint, that carbon footprint on the world like there are things that you can participate in, because a lot of People don't usually See they think about Christianity, which is has a bad name for a lot of people. I know a lot of people get when you hear Christian. I have. I have another friend, she's a great friend of mine. We actually went I didn't go to her husband was one of my professors years back and she said Lionel, don't use the word Christian. I was interviewing her. She said don't use that word because a lot of my friends will be offended by the word. And I get it, laura. I get it and, I hope, are you offended by that word? Do you think Christians are a bunch of cooks? You know, you? Just a bunch of cooks, man.

Speaker 3: 24:43

There is a depth that can be found in Christianity that I really respect and I learn a lot from myself. You know, some of the work that I admire the most comes from Richard war, comes from Matthew Fox, comes from Daniel Berrigan, like incredible teachers of faith who have really looked at what is this space of looking at Jesus, looking at the messages of Of faith, looking at the principles of life, and then how do we translate this into the world as it is?

Speaker 1: 25:08

right, and you know, I think, laura, hmm, boy, you get me excited talking about this particular Subject matter right right here, because I don't want I want people to look, I haven't forgot about what we were talking about. I'm coming right back, I'm I swear I'm coming back around the bin, but I Know them, I know in my audience, our audience is interested in this right, so I Get excited when I talk about this particular part of being a disruptor, change maker in the world is Because I think it is essentially what Jesus was trying to communicate like. The world Is not going to be better if God comes down out of the sky. If you're waiting for that, you're waiting for the wrong thing, and I got different interpretations about what all that meant when Jesus disappeared and According to the biblical Christian scriptures. Right, I got a different interpretation about that, but that's not the point one of the key messages that Jesus gave to his followers when he left or when it disappeared was Greater works you're gonna do because I'm leaving, so you have to do the work and Laura, you're talking about doing the work. So part of what you're saying is, hey, we have to be a disruptor, but another part of what you talked about is Heal and aid. This is part of I'm going back to your. What is the role of it? You know you said disruptor, healing and Adding, or aiding, a healing and aiding, and then you talk about building. So walk us through those, just so we can get a better understanding of, as we're tracking through, how do you, if you want to be a disruptor or change maker, here's some things that you need to do. So Laura's gonna help us out. Y'all listening, take notes now. Okay, go Laura.

Speaker 3: 27:01

Okay. So the healing and aiding role is, most commonly, you can think of this like nonprofits, conservationists, healers, you know anybody who's really helping people who are impacted by injustice. Those of us who nurses, teachers They'll certainly often be in that role as well. How are we going to help people? Is there common answer? And Building is really about. Well, you know, the world as it is is not working right, but we also need to build the world as it could be. You know, how do we start to actually look at the movements of the structures, of the Organizations, of the businesses that need to be built, to reimagine the world that we live in and to plant the seeds of what is to come and the seeds of what will stand ultimately when, I think you know, many structures around us start to fall. So this work is about finding what is ours to do, and all of this is about coming back to an inner compass. It's about coming back to a sense of callings. It's not that one is better than the other, one is more needed than the other. I think every role is needed, but we need to have Some relationship with our inner world, some relationship with a sense of calling, with a sense of vocation, with a sense of this feels like Mine, in order to be doing the work that we can really do in the world and to have our deepest impact. Because, I agree, the world. Jesus did call us into the world and to do great things, and yet we sometimes live our lives as if this is just the way the world is. Nothing's gonna change, it's just about what I do on the inside, not what I do on the outside, and None of that. Really, I think it misses this beautiful piece which calls us into the world. Right, it calls us to do good, and so that's the space that I want us to be returning to.

Speaker 1: 28:39

Yeah, no, I would do in that end of work, right, and out of work. That's that's what we talked about, words for change. Right, it starts inter. This will end of work has to be done, but that has to work. It's not, that's not complete, right, laura? It goes from, it goes from the inter, but it has to show itself, show up in the world, right?

Speaker 3: 28:59

So I grew up Surrounded by a lot of personal development, as I mentioned. So like very much like the new age, spirituality, personal development world. And there's so much wisdom and wonderful teachings in that world that have informed my life and informed the work that I do now. But it also has a very one-way lens of only looking inside ourselves, right. So, if you're not happy with something in your life, well, like, let's look within. If, like you know, you're not getting, you know, the job that you want, if you're not getting the things that you want, like let's look within. And Even then, for, like this idea of like, well, peace and re-naking the world, it's like, well, you know, sometimes love and light, a bit of spiritual, bypassing this, like let's just like you know. Focus on what feels good, and I think that that when we only have a one-way lens, then we're never going to see the whole picture. So we need to learn to look inwards, but we also need to learn to look outwards, and for those of us who are very trained In looking outwards as well which is a lot of already activists in the world I'm very good at looking at systems and structures and why things are the way they are we also need to look inwards.

Speaker 1: 29:56

So it's always this dual perspective that we need to be cultivating, right right, well, you know, and I man, I think that's great and so kind of want to, let's Get that down on our soul, y'all like, in order for us, if we want to be true to this whole idea and concept of being a changemaker, we got to take that inner work and let it show up in the world. And, and it can start very small, right, it could be how you relate to your spouse or significant other, how do you relate to your family? Right, how do you relate to the person who lives next door? How do you work with them? Are you kind, are you generous, do you participate in things? Like you know, it doesn't have to be anything grand, right, laura, you can. It can be as simple as you, you know, picking up trash in your local park. Right, it's, it's, it's coming from a deep and genuine place of I have ownership and and making the world a better place. And then, for those of us who are, I'm sorry, now go ahead. Yeah, I.

Speaker 3: 30:59

I know it's gonna say like yes, I completely agree with this. And this is a fascinating piece, right? Because even when I talk about big systems like capitalism or patriarchy or any kind of a cultural piece that we're coming up against, we often think, well, it's so big, who am I to do anything? Right, I can't do anything about that. But what we're working in is the microcultures. We're working in the small microcultures of our organization, of our community, of our family, of our lives, and that is the place that we all have agency, that we all have power and that we all have direct influence over. So I very much agree, it doesn't have to be big. Working in the small, I think, is far more generative.

Speaker 1: 31:37

Amen to that. Wow, great conversation. I know you guys are getting value out of this interview with Laura and so, Laura, I just wanna end out by asking you to share with our audience you know how they can connect with you and then, as you're talking, I have your website here and so people can see that. But talk to our audience about how they can connect with you.

Speaker 3: 32:08

Yeah, so my website is laurahartleycom and I'm also on Instagram at laurahheartley, and you know my work is really about empowering people to figure out what's theirs in the world, so that we can get free, understand the ways we've internalized systems, that we can steward our power and that we can find what is ours. So I offer coaching and I have a variety of online courses all throughout the year, so check them out and come join if you're interested.

Speaker 1: 32:34

Absolutely so. If you guys are watching this, I'm scrolling through her website. If you watch on YouTube, she has a lot of information there her coaching, her podcast, her blog, a lot of resources. That's a cool. I love that picture man. You had a great person. That's a great camera. Work there, laura.

Speaker 3: 32:53

Thank you very much.

Speaker 1: 32:54

Yeah, great great camera work. So you guys connect with her and you know I'm sure she could be a benefit to you and then sign up for our programs. Right, our job is to put people in front of you who can help you get from where you are to where you want to be. So, laura, what's our final word here? How are we going to end this thing? How are we going to land this plane? Let me say this, let me say this Sorry to interrupt, but what's your next step? What's the next project for you? What are you going to do? What are you working on right now? And we'll end it out that way. How about that?

Speaker 3: 33:35

Okay, I've got a new course starting Cultural Wayfinding, which is really about moving from the world as it is to the world as it could be. And how do we as leaders start to kind of bridge that gap between the two? I have courses on burnout and I have, in the new years, some new courses on nonviolent starting. So we're particularly excited about.

Speaker 1: 33:54

Wow. Well, I tell you what I think we have a lot to talk about. Do you do any work with Dr King? Nonviolent.

Speaker 3: 34:03

I do. Actually I did my certificate in Kingian nonviolence training earlier this year, but it is when I found Kingian nonviolence particularly. It was like life changing.

Speaker 1: 34:13

Oh, I want to know. Send me a link about that. I'm interested in that. Yeah, so I did work with, I used to be a part of the King study group years ago and so, yeah, wrote some papers and stuff like that. But, man, I definitely I'm always looking for opportunities to learn and grow and you know, if you send that link, I'll share it. I'll put in the show notes as well. So you know, people can. If they're interested in that, they can get plugged away at it, right, because it's all about making the world a better place, at least in my eyes. So, hey guys, once again, thank you, thank you so much for listening and please make sure you follow Laura right. She is at Laura partlycom. There, it is Laura partlycom. All of her information is there as well as she. Her information will be in the show notes that you can connect with her. Laura, I am super, super happy that you came by and talked with us today and I look forward to further collaboration with you and I look forward to, you know, pushing the envelope forward and making the world a better place. I think we're all on the same team. I really, really do.

Speaker 3: 35:28

It was an honor to be here, so thank you.

Speaker 1: 35:30

Absolutely. You guys, please make sure you go ahead and check out Words for Change podcast and our YouTube is right there for you if you're watching and, hey, make sure you keep tracking, keep following and keep supporting and share this conversation. That's right With someone who you know can benefit from this conversation. So until next time, thank you, Thank you, your bless and we're out Talk to you soon.